brynndragon: black leather, purple motorcycle, and bright orange helmet - the height of fashion! (Ankai)
[personal profile] brynndragon
I've been watching the Lefton party response play out, and I keep thinking the same thing over and over: the stink about cops is a derailment of the very necessary discussion of an incredibly serious problem that happened at the party, which is that David Judah Sher, a known rapist/abuser whose MO includes picking up people at parties just like that one, was invited and present for a considerable length of time, certainly long enough to find a new victim who we might not have the ability to warn via the missing stair method.

Can we talk about that part please? Can we think about specific pieces of this problem such as how we can disseminate this sort of information so it actually might get to everyone who needs it*? Can we use our massive brains to come up with strategies for keeping known predators from our parties in the future? (Can we listen to the people who have already done this work and adapt that information for the needs uncovered by this discussion rather than reinvent the wheel?)

Can we actually talk about how to keep our community safer from predators who aren't socially awkward already?!?

* Such as sending a message to your general invite list (and on any relevant social media, e.g. the FB page for an event) that it has come to your attention that this person (include full name and any known nicknames) has a history of committing rape/abuse (and in this case you can include links, preferably with trigger warnings), they are banned from all future parties, and if there was anyone you know was at the party but might not be on the general invite list they should be given this info ASAP. I can't say that this is the best solution, it's just one I came up with after I asked this question to myself - which is why I was these questions to be discussed.

Date: 2014-07-10 07:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
One of the Local Rapists has been hosting "the poly pool parties" for years.
Yes, he has a big house, yard and pool. And yes people get drunk and naked in the pool and sometime sex, or group sex breaks out in the livingroom.
BUT he is =known= to have been with a Tipsy girl and then used various social engineering skills to get them DRUNK to the point of passing out and then carrying them off. He has done this to several people. Date rape is never OK. Learning that No Means NO, ASSHOLE. is something that most people figure out.
He never has. And people simply keep an eye on their female friends when they go to his parties.
wut? The Poly Pool Parties are advertised on various social media as a 'safe adult play space'. There are no guards, cops, lifeguards, security walking the place to make sure shits ok. Hell, the home owner probably would not allow it as it might cramp his style. When i have pointed this out to local californian's the general response is "Well, its Aiken, he's like that, what can you do" or variations on the theme.

"East Bay Poly Folk" is San Francisco code for "PEople who allow rapists to rape because it's easier than saying or doing anything about it"

Date: 2014-07-11 05:04 am (UTC)
auros: (Expect Me)
From: [personal profile] auros
If we think it's appropriate to apply a Scarlet Letter to people for this kind of thing, does it make more sense to actually use names in this kind of comment, so that other folks know who not to invite, or who to shove back out the door if they show up at an event where there was a public invite?

Is the concern with naming names that people will sue for libel, if the cases they've been involved with did not include police reports? (Which can be hell for the person making the report, because cops and prosecutors engage in a lot of sex-negative suspicion, and then even if you get to trial a defense lawyer will do even worse.)

Date: 2014-07-11 07:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
And one of the people I know that He Who Shall Remain Namless did nothing with the police because of her previous experiences with the police were actually LESS FUN than the negative experience was. So she does not want to interact with police on the subject of sexual violence ever again.

Awesome! (head/desk)

Date: 2014-07-12 05:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
You may have intended him to remain nameless but your initial comment does contain a name I recognize, BTW. Last line of 2nd to last paragraph. Don't know if you want to delete. I know you can't edit now that it is replied to, unfortunately.

Date: 2014-07-12 07:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
fuck him.

The circles of people who may reject me because I accuse him of such things, already have.
And I don't have already stepped back from them.

It's hard because there are people whom I interact with well, (which would be the basis of a possible friendship, in other cases) and that makes me sad.
If Person Q, is someone I have a lot in common with and we get along, BUT the person in question has the minor problem of a bit of a blindspot when "My Kin is a Rapist" comes into play... Uhh.. Yeah. That's a hard limit.

Date: 2014-07-12 05:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
May I tweet about this?

(I know this is a public post, I just figure it'd be polite to ask first.)

Date: 2014-07-12 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Not at this time, please, I have to ask Crysse and get her OK first. As she would be hit with any blow back as well as I if/when people in the Bay Area choose to be Passive aggressive dickbags.

Date: 2014-07-12 09:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
More like "when", or so I'm informed by my faith in human nature.

No worries at all.

Date: 2014-07-11 01:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I think the major consideration for naming is respecting the wishes of the person who had the really bad experience (rape, abuse, assault, etc). Giving them agency over their experience regarding how they handle it (medically, legally, and socially) is important, and asking for permission to share things like this is also a part of consent culture, IMHO.

In the case that prompted this post, the details are available on public LJ posts, plus public FB posts simply stating their name and that they are a rapist and abuser, specifically for the purpose of disseminating that information as widely as possible. The survivor has made their wishes quite clear, and that's how I came to the conclusion to name the person.

Date: 2014-07-11 01:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
And people simply keep an eye on their female friends when they go to his parties.

What you say is weird and disturbing. I'm surprised that any females go to the party at all, given its known risks.

Date: 2014-07-11 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Some people don't know, because people who DO know
1) Denial ain't just a rivah in egypt
2) don't want to rock the boat
3) don't really believe the 3+ women who have had negative experiences (Well #1 is hysterical #2 is a drama queen #3 is unreliable #4 was REALLY drunk, etc)
4) "I don't like spreading unpleasant rumors"
5) "Why can't everyone just get along?"
6) It can't be as bad as all that or someone would have said something already
7) "yeah, well, maybe, but we want to keep the party rolling, so we don't talk about that sort of thing.... (And if you keep talking about it, you will be removed from several party invite lists as a Drama Queen and become a social pariah)
7b) yes, the rapist is not a social pariah, the people who are trying to WARN PEOPLE ABOUT THE RAPIST become social pariahs. Welcome to everything I *hate* about the Bay Area. It's also about the ONLY thing I hate about living here, except rent costs, but Holy shit is that one aspect of life around here REALLY FUCKED UP.

Date: 2014-07-11 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Some people don't know, because people who DO know

I've never known the rumor mill to not work effectively. (But what do I know about this case?)

that one aspect of life around here REALLY FUCKED UP.

Ugh. But is the oh-so-liberal Bay Area significantly worse than the rest of the country on this?

Date: 2014-07-11 10:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
oh HELL yes.

It is MUCH more common/easier to point to someone and say "that is a person who is a bad person who does bad things" out east.

So much easier to walk to someone and say "Hey, WTF? What was that the other night?"

One of my East Coast friends who moved out here before me described it as saying "Everyone has a social face, you may know someone for years and never get past their social face"

You have to remember: in the Boston Area, Winter is a Thing. You generally only allow people in your house whom you could stand being trapped/snowed in with for 2-3 days. That shit never happens out here (ok, once every 200 years)

there is NEVER a weather situation that if you walked out, naked, that you would DIE within... less than 72 hours around here. So people tolerate a lot more bullshit.

There is a "I will believe your bullshit, if you believe my bullshit" as a basic level of community around here. And on top of that is the weird Passive-Agressive made into an art form crap that goes on as well.

Date: 2014-07-12 02:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Actually, I'd say the problems are different, not better/worse. Our here it's not about social face, it's about that group you'd let stay in your house during the blizzards - let's call them kin, just for a short term.

You need your kin as much as they need you - when the wagons circle, they're the only ones you have to circle them with. When you need to survive the winter, they're the ones you can turn to (and vice versa). You live and die by your kin. And as you mentioned, this is the traditional way of social life in New England. Note that these aren't just people you like, you can like people who aren't kin. These are people you give a certain special consideration to.

So what happens when the perp is your kin?

You get what happened at Readercon, where a possibly over-aggressive anti-harassment policy designed specifically for someone who is decidedly an outsider (as in, a particular individual) suddenly had to be applied to kin. . . and the concom failed to pull it off. (It was eventually properly applied, but only after a significant degree of tossing out the old guard - the people who felt like the perp was still their kin).

And you get what happened here, where a perp was welcomed into a party space and quietly asked to leave rather than pre-banned - that is the way you treat kin who did something completely beyond the pale but you can try to pretend to reasonable doubt unless enough people speak up. It's a terrifying real-world implication of that old saw about friends who you'd help move bodies.

In both cases the community at large overrode kin status, which is the safety valve on this particular approach. But as you can see, that's a really hard thing to do - it takes significant effort and causes a whole lot of anguish and social fallout, and that's when the victim/survivor is really strong and has solid allies/kin on their side. Someone who doesn't have those advantages is completely screwed, and *perps know this* and target those people specifically (in this case the victim/survivor is not from around here; the perp underestimated both her personal strength and her ability to build a kin network in time). This system is clearly broken.

At this point the people I can consider kin are the ones saying we need to stop treating someone as kin when another person steps forward and tells us about how they raped, physically assaulted, or sexually harassed that person - you still want to investigate the report, of course, but you absolutely must not be thinking of or treating the perp as kin while doing so. People who aren't willing to do that are not people I can trust to have my back, be it during a blizzard or at the beginning of summer. Sadly that untrustworthy list has gotten a lot longer this week.

Thank You Brynn

Date: 2014-07-12 07:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
- you still want to investigate the report, of course, but you absolutely must not be thinking of or treating the perp as kin while doing so-

Some people exaggerate, are drama queens etc. But... If someone is insane enough of a drama queen (histrionic personality disorder) then they have probably lied about other things previously.
Anyone who comes forward to about an allegation of Sexual violence, improper behavior, what ever - 97%+ of the time they are not exaggerating, and what 60%+ of the time they are merely are one of many.
Edited Date: 2014-07-12 07:32 am (UTC)

Re: Thank You Brynn

Date: 2014-07-12 01:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I have a personal policy of believing people who say these things unless there is a good and specific reason not to. But I don't trust my social circles to be capable of that policy - the best I feel I can hope for is to maybe not assume the worst of a victim/survivor.

How sad is that?

Re: Thank You Brynn

Date: 2014-07-12 08:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
My phrase is
"I hate it when people live down to my expectations"

Date: 2014-07-12 03:22 pm (UTC)
rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (Default)
From: [personal profile] rosefox
This is a common misconception about the Readercon events. The board didn't know the perpetrator. They just thought the harassment didn't rise to the level of a banning offense.

I don't usually bother correcting people on this, but in a discussion of how problems happen, it's relevant. It was not a kin protection issue; it was a harassment downplaying issue.

Date: 2014-07-12 04:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Thank you for this correction! I had thought it was a case where the bad actor was a SMoF and therefore being treated like kin by the SMoFs who run the con even though they hadn't known him before it all went down.

Date: 2014-07-12 03:24 pm (UTC)
rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (books)
From: [personal profile] rosefox
I went to one of Akien's pool parties within a week of moving to the Bay Area. The rumor mill didn't have time to kick in; the "party invitation for cute 23-year-old newbies" mechanism was much more efficient.

Date: 2014-07-13 12:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
How would you know, exactly, if the rumour mill did not work effectively? Or, indeed, at all?

Date: 2014-07-14 08:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Whenever I've been around groups of women who were "letting their hair down", comments about guys have been fairly common, and in particular about their deficiencies. And even outside of situations like that, I've heard guys' more deplorable properties commented on. One that sticks in my mind fairly clearly was about one poor fellow who had mis-handled a number of (short) relationships in a short period of time -- he had just started dating a woman, and it was reported that "[the women] had joined The Future Exes of [the man]".

And in other situations, where a group of people has had common interests, the passing of information seems to be fairly efficient. The workers in a section of a company pass around information about the various bosses and bigwigs. In a college, which profs are good and in what ways is passed around. Recommendations for restaurants, doctors, lawyers, etc. seem to be circulated. And in small towns, who is having an affair with whom is a popular staple.

So it seems likely to me that if a guy is known to present a risk of physical violence to women that the word is likely to circulate pretty efficiently.

Now if indeed the grapevine does not work in regard to reporting violence-prone guys, that would be an important fact worth stating and examining... important to the whole society. But I've not heard anyone say that.

Date: 2014-07-14 09:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I know you're trying to help, but please bring something more qualified/interesting than your dudely anecdotal evidence to this party. The person you are responding to already has plenty of information on that level regarding how this information both does and does not get to the people who need it, including from/with those people directly rather than indirect observations. Thanks!

Date: 2014-07-15 03:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
he person you are responding to already has plenty of information on that level

If I'm wrong, I'd be glad to be corrected by seeing better information on the subject. As odd as it might seem, I really would be interested in hearing a long lecture on the subject, as it's damned important. And I might have overlooked it somewhere in the overall discussion, since I haven't tried to track it all down. But at least scanning for Xtina's contributions to this LJ post, I haven't found it.

Date: 2014-07-15 03:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
So, from what I'm seeing, your method is to assert something that is categorically impossible, and then when you're called out on it, to say that you're willing to be educated but that you haven't seen anything countering your utterly incorrect statement.

And this is from a dude who's Just Trying To Help.

If you say you're just playing devil's advocate, do I get a cookie? Gluten-/dairy-free?

Date: 2014-07-14 09:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
"I've never known the rumor mill to not work effectively" is basically a useless statement. You're saying that you, as a dude, feel that the rumor mill, which in this instance is referring to cis dudes, is sufficient. How exactly would you, a freakin' dude, even have any idea about this? What purpose does that line serve to begin with, even assuming it was at all accurate?

I know I would not feel comfortable broadly discussing whether someone was a rapist in a group with a cis dude in it. I have had sub-par (yet appallingly common) experiences with cis dudes who bust out the whole "not ALL men" spiel that I'm infinitely bloody tired of. ("Let's look at this rationally!" Let's barf on the lawn!) I would absolutely not talk about such things in front of cis dudes, and I cannot possibly be the only one who thinks like this. (I can think of precisely two cis dudes I'd bother talking about this with, and one of them I'm not 100% certain about.)

Given that, how would you even know?

Date: 2014-07-14 10:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
This comment makes me wish very hard there was a "Like" function on LJ.

Date: 2014-07-15 11:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I just couldn't with the sheer absurdity of that line. How does anyone ever, ever, know a rumour mill is working?

Date: 2014-07-15 02:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
More to the point, what is your experience and observation with the rumor mill? How effective is it at warning women who inquire as to whether guys have tendencies toward violence? You'd know better than I -- what do you think?

Date: 2014-07-15 03:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Nooo, you're the one asserting that you've never known the rumour mill to not work effectively, you've got to come up with ways to back that up beyond dudely anecdata.

Date: 2014-07-15 03:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
The thing you're missing here is it requires time and resources to educate people, meaning it is an additional burden placed on marginalized people when privileged people don't take the effort to do so on their own. Also, in geekdom in particular women are told that they're not really geeks if they don't do their own homework, yet men expect to not only have their authoritative statements believed unless evidence is given to the contrary on subjects they know exactly jack and shit about, but to have those same women do their homework for them? That is not going to fly.

I even gave you suggestions for things to seek out on the internet on your own in a reply your top-level comment below this thread - geek up and RTFM already.

ETA: The fact that I'm pretty sure the people you're talking to in this subthread are not women (you can correct me if I'm wrong, Xtina) and yet you're treating us like we are makes the whole thing even more annoying as fuck.
Edited Date: 2014-07-15 03:35 pm (UTC)

Date: 2014-07-12 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Thank you! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I am one of the people who tried to warn others about the particular problem person unseelie mentions. And it was years ago, and the backlash, denial, and vitriol I faced were life changing and helped me in my decision to walk away from that particular cess-pool party, and never return.

Pretty much reasons 1,2,3,4,5,6, and 7 above.

I'm mean. And Angry. And therefore anything I say means nothing.

Whatever. I feel sad that I stopped warning the people who cycle through that cess pool, because there's always a fresh crop of potential victims coming along for him, but I got tired of the damage I took being a voice in the wilderness.

Date: 2014-07-10 10:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I really appreciate this being a separate conversation from the one talking about how to best implement the restraining order, etc. I think it's a valuable one to have, and mixing it in with Who Did What Wrong is just muddling matters.

Addendum: I have other thoughts about very loosely related topics to this one, but I'd be more inclined to talk about them not in a written space. Still too scary to talk about.
Edited Date: 2014-07-10 10:13 pm (UTC)

Date: 2014-07-10 11:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Ah, so *this* is what everyone has been hinting at on FB.

Can't say I am the slightest bit surprised that it played out the way it did.

Date: 2014-07-11 02:15 am (UTC)

Date: 2014-07-11 03:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
(In all cases, the comments are highly enlightening regarding how everything unfolded)

What happened at the Beginning of Summer party a couple of weeks ago, as described by the survivor:

How the hosts responded earlier this week:

A follow-up by one of the hosts later that day:

'Song responded the next day:

You will find more posts on the subject in 'Songs journal, but I think those are the most pertinent in terms of the kerfuffle part (if others want to include links I might've missed, please do).

Date: 2014-07-12 04:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
thanks but holy god is that horrifying

My lawyer-type friends agree that it is a bit risky for a party policy to be expressly (not to mention publicly written) "we'll tell you when it's okay to call the cops". I mean, that could turn around and the bite would be pretty nasty.

And... gosh, I really liked those people, and I can understand that it might have looked to them like she was showing up specifically to wreck havoc, but she has since stated that she was not and tried to clarify her position, and their priorities of self-defense (and thereby what looks like perp-defense) haven't budged an inch, and that's fucking terrifying.

So much cringe.

Oh, and whoever WeeGoddess is, I never hope to know.

Date: 2014-07-12 04:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
She is one of the major disappointments for me in this mess. Like, sunspiral I kinda hoped would do the right thing but my past interactions with him left me feeling like he doesn't really see me as a human being, so I mostly got what I expected in terms of dealing with the thing that actually made me and others outside of his intimate group really upset about what went down (which is that it wasn't dealt with at all because those who care about it are not worth that degree of consideration).

But weegoddess, I've had at least acquaintance-level knowledge of her for a long time, and I generally thought of her as friendly and good people. Now I feel really uncomfortable around her based on things she's said this week. Sadly it's not the first and it won't be the last something like that happens.

Date: 2014-07-11 12:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I've stayed out of it since I haven't been in Boston for a year and am not affected by this and I think there are too many men talking already.

But yes, this. Exactly this. I have been greatly dismayed by how the digging, it keeps getting deeper.

More and more I think the ability to bypass defensiveness is pretty much the key characteristic of sane adulthood.

Date: 2014-07-12 05:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
How do we develop that ability?

Date: 2014-07-13 09:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I know of no magic method. I think it's really like trying to change anything else in ourselves we don't like:

1) Acknowledge it's an issue and why.
2) Genuinely want and commit to change.
3) Mindfulness practice about what triggers it and how to recognise it during or before.
4) Kindness and compassion for one's imperfect progress, and refusing to let that be a reason to give up.

I see each of those as a "hurdle" in that I doubt there can be much effective progress on subsequent points until each one is genuinely understood and dealt with on a good faith basis.

For defensiveness specifically, I think most people fail at the first point. People really don't seem to think it's that big a deal in themselves. I've come to view defensiveness as one of the largest obstacles or challenges for just about any difficult communication.

For those who get past the first hurdle, I think the third is more challenging. I don't think it's all that hard to learn to recognise that we've been acting or speaking from defensiveness once we've been doing it for a bit in an interaction, but it takes a lot more work to understand what leads to it and defuse it before it starts.

For more concrete suggestions, a great deal of the advice for allies from intersectional social justice really seems to me to be about defusing defensiveness. Be less quick to talk; listen more; think more; explicitly try to consider things from the other's perspective; recognise when irritation or anger are really coming from hurt, guilt or shame.

Date: 2014-07-11 01:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Such as sending a message to your general invite list (and on any relevant social media, e.g. the FB page for an event) that it has come to your attention that this person (include full name and any known nicknames) has a history of committing rape/abuse (and in this case you can include links, preferably with trigger warnings), they are banned from all future parties, and if there was anyone you know was at the party but might not be on the general invite list they should be given this info ASAP.

OK, that's a sensible suggestion. Why don't you go ahead and do that?

Actually, the critical issue is that last question. Why don't people do this? Of course, there's a bunch of trouble about libel, but presumably someone can consult a good lawyer and figure out how to work around that.

Why don't people do that?

I think (at this point) that the problem is with the phrase "our community". As if there is a corporate entity "our community", with a defined membership, a defined set of responsibilities toward its members (including excluding people whose behavior the writer objects to), ... and a leadership that is responsible for making it so.

"Our community" is actually a set of overlapping social circles, with no definitive ultimate outer boundary, each circle having a vaguely defined membership. We like to think of the Leftons' party as being for "our community", but it's actually for a list of people that the Leftons keep. We like to think that the Leftons have the responsibilities that we define toward that community, but they may have their own idea of their responsibilities. And we definitely like to think that the Leftons are responsible for doing all the work.

The cure (at least as it seems to me at this moment) is for someone who objects to the status quo to "take leadership", to take on the job of fulfilling the "responsibility of our community" to get the word out.

Otherwise people will continue to be stuck with the strategy "Remember that people you meet who you don't have good background information on might not turn out to be very nice".

Date: 2014-07-12 05:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I don't have access to the invite list, so I can't do that in this case.

But furthermore, I don't think someone taking some form of leadership will be the cure, because we'll end up right back at "who watches the watcher?" where if you make the wrong call there is no recourse for a victim/survivor and/or others could be placed in harm's way (which is exactly what happened here - not explicitly banning Judah well before this party was the wrong call, and if he met/picked up anyone at the party and harms them it will have had dire consequences).

I think what is required is changing the culture as a whole so it becomes our normal that we actually do not tolerate rape/abuse/physical assault (instead of being like "of course we don't", then giving a violent rapist continued access to your large party space, then objecting only to the part where someone might call the cops because a violent rapist is in your large party space).

We do that by teaching ourselves about how things like that happen. I recommend you Google "rape culture" and read everything women have written on the subject (and yes, specifically women, because they are the ones with the most knowledge and direct experience in this arena). Also look for personal accounts of people who have experienced rape (and here men and women victims/survivors both have a lot of say). I mean not only reading about rape itself, but also how their community reacted to them reporting/talking about that rape, and how that reaction affected both them and the rapist (or if they didn't feel like they could report/talk about it, why that was the case). Look for the outcomes you want (rapist leaves, victim/survivor stays, in case that's not obvious) as well as the ones you don't want and see what's different about the cases where you get what you want vs. where you don't.

That's where you start. And then, once you've seen the problem, we can all sit down and try to figure out solutions.
Edited Date: 2014-07-12 05:05 pm (UTC)

Date: 2014-07-15 03:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I don't have access to the invite list, so I can't do that in this case.

True, though when I read "Such as sending a message to your general invite list (and on any relevant social media", I assumed you meant the person sending a message to the person's own general invite list, social media, etc. Their own contacts. (I don't have such a list myself, but I use Suspects, and in this particular instance, the overlap between Suspects and the L's party invite list must be high.)

So someone could easily get the word out broadly... Which is what I thought you were advocating, given what you'd written.

And when it comes to getting the word out broadly, somebody's actually got to do it. What you write further down seems to be more directed towards what people will do when they receive the word. Even if people behave in an exemplary manner, they've got to be notified, which means someone has to do the notifying. Which is what you write about doing.

I think what is required is changing the culture as a whole so it becomes our normal that we actually do not tolerate rape/abuse/physical assault

Why don't we just prosecute these guys? Maybe I'm behind the times, but my memory is that rape is good for "five to twenty in the state pen". If we've really got the evidence to justify casting someone into the outer darkness forever, don't we have the evidence to obtain a conviction? And that's certainly a socially-enforced "we actually do not tolerate".

And even if the criminal justice "system" craps out, if the guy's got any interest in his future well being, even being called in for an interview with the prosecutor should cause him to amend his behavior. That won't fix past harm, but it should cut way down on future harm.

[Probably more later; I haven't nearly finished thinking through your comments here.]

Date: 2014-07-15 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
The answer to all your questions is "that is not how it actually works". If you want to know how it works DO YOUR FUCKING HOMEWORK ALREADY YOU HAVE THE ENTIRE INTERNET AT YOUR DISPOSAL. But since I'm feeling mildly benevolent I'll give you a single link:

Date: 2014-07-15 12:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
yes please *ugh*. i'm making myself sick over this.


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