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[personal profile] brynndragon
I've read these before, and have had cause to link to them but couldn't find them again, so I'm putting them here so I can (trigger warning: sexual assault, no graphic descriptions):

Mythcommunication: It’s Not That They Don’t Understand, They Just Don’t Like The Answer

Meet the Predators

Date: 2012-08-04 07:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] metahacker.livejournal.com
Yup. *grr*

Dovetails nicely into the essay on 'let's talk about how rape is *fun*', which I have yet to write and hope to find on the internet so I don't have to, because necessary but eew.

(Also, yay Conversation Analysis. I was reading through and saw the explanation of Jefferson notation and was like, "duh!! No, wait, actually, not everyone knows that--in fact almost no one knows that...")
Edited Date: 2012-08-04 07:12 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-08-04 07:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] metahacker.livejournal.com
I think this is why "but he had Aspergers / different cultural norms / is a special snowflake!" is such a poor defense.

Because if you don't understand--don't proceed! Jeez.

Date: 2012-08-04 10:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] benndragon.livejournal.com
You know, I don't think I've ever met someone with Aspergers who wouldn't rather not proceed than fuck up shit like that. Hell, people with Aspergers *tell you outright* what they think of you - you don't have the "well maybe I'm reading something in this" thing that happens with harassers. (I'm thinking specifically of an interaction I had recently with someone who has Aspergers who found me attractive - he asked me if specific behaviors were bothersome as they came up. Harassers just don't do that - it would give someone an opening to expressly refuse the behavior.)

Date: 2012-08-05 12:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] plymouth.livejournal.com
Indeed. Also, aspies are the ones it's REALLY EASY to say direct "No" to because after interacting with them for just a very short time you get a sense that they prefer directness. I have had aspies who crossed boundaries they didn't know about or recognize but they pretty much immediately backed the fuck off when informed of it.

Of course I'm aspie-trending myself so I do tend towards directness by default, so it's possible that a lot of folks don't get the "ok I can be direct with this person" reaction quite as strongly as I do. Still, if they have any clue at all they should pick up SOMETHING along those lines.

Date: 2012-08-05 12:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] benndragon.livejournal.com
It's kinda astounding how, if people actually paid attention, they could learn a lot about seeking direct consent (which is an awesome social skill) from folks with Aspergers, rather than assuming such folks somehow lack the ability to not harass people.

(As an aside, I note that folks with Aspergers can also be jerks, but I suspect it's actually less common than the general population because they have a harder time getting the benefits from that sort of behavior.)

Date: 2012-08-05 12:38 am (UTC)
cos: (frff-profile)
From: [personal profile] cos
    Second, while the authors of the paper say that this makes all rape prevention advice about communicating a clear "no" pointless, I have a different take. Clear communication of "no" isn't primarily going to avoid miscommunication - rather, it's a meta-message. Clear communication against the undercurrent that "no" is rude and should be softened is a sign of the willingness to fight, to yell, to report.


He's on to something in disagreeing with the authors of the paper about this tangetial point, but I think he's not taking it far enough. "No" is more useful than he paints it to be.

First, many people who have been raped by the usual ambiguity-seeking predator end up doubting themselves afterward, feeling like they did wrong and let it happen; this kind of predator is deliberately trying to create those feelings. This is particularly effective against women, who have more trouble saying no. Knowing that she did in fact clearly say "no" makes things clearer, especially if she talks it over with a friend or counselor, so it mitigates the aftermath somewhat.

Second, these serial predators seem to develop and tune their skill of getting away with it, in part by creating and promoting exactly that ambiguity. Leaving their target with a sense of "was it my fault? was I not clear enough?" is part of their protection. My theory is that while they may be perfecting willing to (or even deliberately wanting to) have sex with someone who they know does not want to, some of them may still decide not to have sex with someone who explicitly says "no", because it increases the risk that they'll be accused later.
Edited Date: 2012-08-05 12:38 am (UTC)

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