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[brynndragon]

I suspect this is going to happen every time I post something even vaguely related to chinese philosophy or medicine, so I want to nip it in the bud right here. If you can't admit to yourself that maybe, just maybe, you don't have the cultural background to have a freakin' clue what the hell you're talking about when you say that traditional chinese medicine and/or philosophy is Bad(tm) because it's "unscientific", then please don't say a damn thing. There have been a lot of dinkum thinkums all over the world in all time periods and deciding that they were wrong just because they didn't/don't work with your favorite methodology is far more narrow-minded than I want to deal with in my journal. I'm sick and tired of normally intelligent people acting like "holier than thou" skeptics who worship at the altar of Science! without any more thought to their dogma than any other fundie in my LiveJournal, and I'm not going to tolerate any more of it. If you couldn't be arsed to say anything when I was trying to determine if I could reconcile TCM with my scientific background and can't get the fuck over yourself enough to say "Hey, maybe if this person who I like and is my friend thinks this thing has merit, maybe it actually does have some merit and I shouldn't just shoot it down out of hand" then you should rethink whether or not you ought to be here.

Comments

[kadath.livejournal.com]

...skeptics who worship at the altar of Science!

Well, I pretty much am. Which is why I keep my mouth shut when you're talking about TCM.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

See, that's just fine, it's folks who seem to feel the need to edumacate me that I felt the need to lay the smack-down on. Now I'm thinking I should make a filter so people who don't like my unscience don't have to deal with it.

[brewergnome.livejournal.com]

Wow, someone hit a nerve.

Me, in my daily life I worship at the altar of Empiricism. But that doesn't mean I don't accept that there may be things outside the realms of Science and Empirical thought, there may be things which by definition Science can't describe.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

That.

Also, what troubles me is the way the Medical MafiaAMA tries to maintain their monopoly on medical treatment in the US by manipulating both the legal system and the system of scientific research to shut out all treatments other than allopathic medicine. You probably will never get good research into the scientific bases and mechanisms of any non-allopathic system of diagnosis and treatment until that monopoly is broken.

[brewergnome.livejournal.com]

Someday we'll get some real research into the magic of the placebo effect.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

If it was being done, I'd probably be doing that instead. Why is the fact that people spontaneously recover when given a sugar pill treated like an artifact of data? (do you know if placeboes are better curatives than no treatment? I can't remember of the top of my head)

[brewergnome.livejournal.com]

Placebos are almost always significantly (and I use that word purposefully) better than no treatment, even of things like cancers and terminal illness.

I'll never understand why we don't try really hard to exploit the ability to NOT give people stuff and still make them better.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

The cynic in me says it's less profitable, to which the logical part of me says "how is being able to give people sugar pills rather than synthesizing complex molecules less profitable?" I think the simple answer is because figuring out how to exploit that is hard. It will take many manyears of work and runs the risk of alienating a large portion of one's peers depending on what you find (look at what happened to Einstein at first). However, the benefits will likely go beyond exploitation of the placebo effect and into the very heart of how our bodies work (and it might be that we won't be able to figure it out until we open up the black box between our ears).

[brewergnome.livejournal.com]

I suppose. It still surprises me that there aren't more primary research scientists working on it.

I guess because it's hard to know where to start without starting with people, and that requires hard to get permits. And the hard sciences have ever been leery of delving into soft psych too much.

Wonder if you can induce a placebo-type effect in rats... monkeys?

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

Research into the placebo effect is in full swing.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/271/20/1609
http://www.psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/4/315
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;293/5532/1164
...there are MANY other such links...

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

There's a lot of good that comes from Empiricism, no question about that. I've worshiped at that altar a long time myself and am really glad others are doing the same. It lets me go off and pursue other paths of inquiry into the human condition and how it can be improved.

[greyhame.livejournal.com]

FWIW, though I generally stay out of these discussions, I'd say that "Hey, maybe if this person who I like and is my friend thinks this thing has merit, maybe it actually does have some merit" is a much less tenable argument than "Hey, maybe if this person whose intelligence I respect and who I don't think is gullible thinks this thing has merit, it actually might have some merit." That is, whether or not I like you or am your friend doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not I think you're smart or not easily taken in by quackery. *shrug*

[ectropy.livejournal.com]

Hey, your Science! is pure religious mumbo-jumbo and the province of conniving witch-doctors! Me, I'm going to stick to good old-fashioned flat-Earthism, spontaneous generation, and baseless faith! And while we're at it, I don't know if I approve of this "fire" thing... seems dangerous and untested.

:p

*thumbs up to TCM*

[dragonvpm.livejournal.com]

Well said. For a while now, I've felt that way about a lot of geeky/science type folks I know and it's nice to hear someone else make that point about blndly worshipping at the altar of science. It surprises me how often scientifically minded folks have such rigid and intractable belief systems when it could be argued that a prerequisite for real scientific exploration is being open-minded and willing to consider alternate interpretations of "reality" or "the truth".

[watercolorblue.livejournal.com]

Exactly!!
I work in science myself, and you know, scientific theories get debunked every day. Science doesn't deserve blind worship any more than any other religion/philosophy.

[white-and-nrdy.livejournal.com]

Even if someone does worship at the altar of Science! if they're a friend of yours, they should have the decency to respect your beliefs even if there're different from theirs. I once had a long term relationship with a girl who was devoutly Protestant, but the vast difference in our spirituality was never an issue with us. We respected our differences, didn't try to convert each other, and got on with life. That's how I think it should be.

I'm all for respectful discussion and debate on differing views on Life, the Universe, and Everything. I was a Science! worshipper myself for quite some time, until the results of such discussions made me change my mind. At this point, my view is "Use *all* the tools in the toolbox." If Science! has the answer, then go with it. If TCM has it, then go with that. If it's Reiki, then go with that. Or any combination of the above.

Because you just never know when you're going to need that 18mm deep socket to change the spark plugs on a Suzuki GS. >:)

[watercolorblue.livejournal.com]

I think it's great that you're combining a scientific background with this other school of thought. They may contradict each other at times, but I strongly believe that studying both sides, accepting both with an open mind, will make you a very powerful individual. Good on you.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

I'm sitting here going "these two things that have do so much for health and well-being were thought up seperately by people a hell of a lot smarter than I am. There must be some way to put them together and get Voltron something even more powerful than they are seperately that can be used for the good of humanity!"

Yes, I secretly want to be a superhero. I'll settle for helping people feel better and inspiring/working with people who can make actual break-throughs (because cancer research is not where that's going to happen, I tell you what).