Invisible Privilege OTD

[brynndragon]

Men in Power - Men's advocacy group at U of Chicago, which amongst a slew of privilege observation fail notes that women earn more college degrees than men yet fails to notice that women still make less money than men. This does not assure me that they're anything more than a group of guys who are afraid of losing their privilege in the exceedingly gradual evening of the playfield between the genders.

Comments

[tober.livejournal.com]

I think you're both right and wrong with respect to gyms. I think one could reasonably extend your argument to say that if there were a high-enough level of societal equality between women and men that not only would the women-only gyms disappear, gyms would no longer need single-sex locker rooms. I actually think that neither of these are completely true. I am only speaking for myself here, but I can say that if I had access to two gyms which were equally convenient and of equal quality and one was co-ed and the other was men-only, I would prefer the men-only one because I feel somewhat less self-conscious working out without there being any women present[1]. Of course, I would really like a gym in which I was guaranteed to be the only person there, but that desire is unreasonable. I know there are many people who feel otherwise, but I think that just argues in favor of the existence of both co-ed and single-sex gyms.

[1] Maybe this is unusual but I can't imagine that it's terribly rare.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

Actually, there are men's only gyms.

[tober.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to imply that men's only gyms don't exist - they are a rarity though and most of those that do exist are the sort of place I wouldn't even consider joining for reasons that I probably don't need to enumerate here[1]. I should also add that I'm a little uncomfortable (what I said previously notwithstanding) with the fact that single-gender gyms exist from the standpoint of gym-as-business (as opposed to gym-as-place) and gender discrimination. It is, in general, in the US, considered counter to public policy for a business to have discriminatory practices in who it allows to be its customers. Gyms can get away with this (actually, I am unsure whether it has ever been adjudicated - but one would think so) because they are generally "private clubs" and as such mostly have the law on their side in terms of discriminatory practices (in choosing who can and cannot be members, though not, in most jurisdictions, with respect to hiring). That still bothers me a bit, as most gyms (of the sort that people like you and I use) are really more (for-profit) businesses than they are clubs as such. If e.g.- BJ's or Costco decided to have discriminatory membership practices, it would appear to be the case that, legally, they could. I know I would be bullshit about it if they did, though.

[1] Ok, I will, a little. It is my perception that such gyms are usually "old boys' clubs" and I find that sort of thing distasteful.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

I could explain the issues of physical safety associated with women's only gyms vs. co-ed gyms (in short: if I was going to go work out late at night, I'd much rather go to a women's only gym, with one reason being if I went to a co-ed gym and something bad happened to me *I* would be blamed for it). I could attempt again to explain the privilege that men have, which applies to the gym as well (starting with the time I attempted to tell a (male) trainer "no, really, I want to be stronger and have more endurance, I don't give a fuck about weight and would like to develop muscles" repeatedly and still got a lose-weight-look-trim-no-muscle-growth regiment). I could even point out the irony that you see men's only gyms as "old boy's clubs" when every single frickin' co-ed gym I've ever walked into has been such (complete with female eye-candy for them). But I don't think it'll make much of a difference.

[lionofgod.livejournal.com]

I don't think that all coed gyms are old boy's clubs. The ones I've been in certainly have not been, and the eye candy factor was exactly zero. (For reference, most of those are corporate.) Nor do I think that an all male gym necessarily needs to be.

I have *nothing* against all-female gyms, because people *do* need a safe space to work out.... but seriously, guys need that too. And not all guys consider either the testosterone-filled competetive environment that's what *i've* heard about from all-male and mostly-male gyms, *or* the more casual just-in-here-to-get-in-shape environments all that welcoming.

Sexist jerks do exist in gyms, but really, they're not the only people in them. Nor are all men who would prefer to have a place that *they're* not self-conscious about their bodies in front of people they might otherwise like to impress (like girls) inherently sexist jerks. There really are shy guys, and I *know* you know some. The safety issue is certainly less of a concern, and I'm not playing it down, but when it comes to willingness-to-come-and-work-out, I know plenty of guys just as uncomfortable with "standard" gym culture as you seem to be.

I don't think anyone is arguing against women's only gyms being a needed thing in today's world, much as we might wish they weren't. But given that... no, I don't actually have any problem with a guy's space.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

I don't mind the existance of men's only gyms. I'm really OK with them. But it's almost never "let's go have men's only gyms!", it's usually "hey, you get to have your own gyms, that's not fair!". Remember, this started with "I mean, down the street from me there's a gym that's nice and convenient, that I can't go to because it's for women only". It really looks like no one stopped to see if there were any men's only gyms before bitching about the women's only gyms, and that's a huge problem with this thread that I should have pointed out several comments ago.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't even get me started on a "women's gym" that actively supports removing rights from women. Curves is a fucking travesty on so many levels. . .

I'm so not in the mood to poke at this anymore. I've tried several ways of explaining it and I don't feel like coming up with yet another attempt to get through to yet another guy who doesn't get it. Especially when single sex gyms are entirely not the subject of this post to begin with. Go read this instead.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

You are treading on exceptionally dangerous ground, not just in terms of this discussion but in terms of how you are interacting with me as a womab. The next step is breaking out the haiku. You've been warned.