Dragon: A Parable

I liked

adaptively's post a couple days ago.

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The link I shared also mentions Lupercalia: ". . . even if you don't count in the Lupercalia (which you really shouldn't, unless wolf skins play a large part in your personal celebrations. If so, more power to you)."

But that post is almost the opposite of the one I linked. Did you read it?

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Nope, not yet. I clicked through, saw it was a bit long, and came back to leave a link on a similar subject that was fresh in my mind, and then got distracted; I'll go give it a read now.

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I kinda wish you had, since you'd've realized it eloquently explains why the attitude in your link is not so great actually. I'm debating taking out your comment since the link has no explanation of what it is and is very jarring in this context.

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Having gone over to read it carefully now, I don't actually think the two views are opposed or incompatible. (I also think that

yuki_onna mischaracterizes at least some of the objections to Valentine's day, though her positive arguments — "here's what's interesting and important about Valentine's Day" — are great; it's just that the negative ones — "people who don't like Valentine's Day are stupid jerks" — sort of detract from them.)

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people who don't like Valentine's Day are stupid jerks

She is saying they are mistaken and thus being lead to potentially harm something beautiful, which they would not want to do if they knew what was really going on. Stupid jerks would specifically want to destroy beautiful things, which means she is specifically saying that they're not stupid jerks - at worst she's saying they're ignorant about Valentine's Day.

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but, I meant to also say, I'm not trying to pick a fight, and wouldn't have posted that link if I'd thought you'd find it objectionable, and I won't be bothered if you decide to delete it.

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adaptively.livejournal.com

If it helps, I love Valentine's day and was trying to convey an optimistic attitude about it in my post. (Hence the 'positive' in the site name. :)) Lots of people bluster about Hallmark and stereotypes but I think it needs to be recognized that there are other ways to celebrate love and sex to warm us up in the dreariest part of winter.

I also enjoyed the original link, but I'm in a bit of a hurry so I mostly skimmed after the bit about sad, Valentine-less grade-schoolers.

Back to celebrating, I've got pink champy to sip out of a skull-shaped goblet. :D

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metahacker.livejournal.com

Thank you.

Also, happy Valentine's Day.

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Honestly, I think the author here is far too dismissive of some very important arguments about the holiday, playing them off as the whining of people who were maltreated in grade school. I have honest social and philosophical issues with the cancer this holiday has turned into, and I know a lot of people, many of whom are deeply in love and have been for a long time, who share them.

If it's all the same, I think I'll keep pooh-poohing.

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I think you might have missed the point - Hallmark and its ilk have tried to appropriate this holiday and turn it from a celebration of the hope and joy of love and the faith that life will return with spring into a burden on the backs of people by making them terrified of love rather than rejoicing in it so they will spend more money. While those who feel the need to find the perfect piece of jewelery are not to be mocked (they've already got enough problems), the forces that make them feel that need are taking our - OUR - holiday from us and we need to tell them to fuck off. We should retake Valentine's day, spend it dancing around bonfires, showing genuine affection to your loved ones, and having lots of sex instead of buying fancy flowers and dinners.

I strongly suspect those people you mention would be with me on this one. I think next year I'll have me a bonfire. . .

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Not really. I have more than a few friends who would rather celebrate such things on their anniversaries or on some other day that holds importance to their relationship.. It's wonderful to celebrate that intimate bond when you have it, but I've always felt that it was a deeply personal thing, and such celebrations should be unique to the people involved. Forcing a public celebration of such a deeply personal thing, quite frankly, cheapens the intimacy and belittles those that don't have it themselves. Why should I be 'forced' in a societal sense to celebrate something I have no business celebrating: the relationships of others?

The 'holiday' fills far too many people with dread, as you rightly point out. Those who are in relationships fear not being able to "prove" their feelings by spending enough money, or buying the right colored flowers. Those that are not in relationships wind up feeling oppressed and belittled by the whole spectacle. However, most of society has bought into the current diseased incarnation of the celebration, and those of us that object are simply screaming at the wall. Frankly I have the same problems with Christmas, and refuse to celebrate it for similar reasons.

We do approach these things differently, however, and I can appreciate your more earthy view in some ways, even if I don't share your conclusions. If people could find a way to take it back, make the holiday more personal and exorcise the horrible cancer it suffers from, then more power to you. Until such a thing happens, however, and I honestly feel that it won't, I will remain in favor of the scorched earth policy: raze it to the ground and get this blighted "celebration" out of my sight.

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etherial.livejournal.com

I didn't realize there was forced public sex on Valentine's Day. Must be too cold in Massachusetts.

Most of society has bought into the current diseased incarnation of relationships, and Valentine's Day just points out how badly out of touch our societal expectations of interpersonal relationships is.

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If you're going to focus it to being just about sex, then we're talking about something different. Also, SO not in favor of that; there are plenty of people who I do not want to see nekkid in public, myself included. :P

Good point about the day being a reflection of society's dysfunctional view of relationships, though. It points to a much larger issue, one which I really feel cannot be fixed while the issue of relationships and intimacy are still made to be part of the societal arena, which will likely never change.

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Now that's taking individualism rather too far. No man is an island, and a damn good thing - our lives would be poorer if we lived them alone, without our friends and family helping us cope with the bad time and celebrate the good times. I'm with Spider Robinson on this one: Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. The biggest pains and joys should be shared with more people, not fewer. This is how we acknowledge each other as human beings, how we avoid the tantalizing despair of solipsism. It's true that we can fall into the trap of acting in a play on the public stage rather than engaging with the people around us, but destroying all connections with others will not solve our problems so much as change them for the worse. We need to reengage with humanity, not push them all away.

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I am not talking about cutting off all ties; perhaps I worded my reply improperly.

I'm talking more about the problem of public scrutiny and control over what is essentially a private matter. It's the same thing that causes problems for non-monogamous and/or non-hetero relationships: public pressure to conform to a narrow and massively dysfunctional 'norm' that ignores basic biology, human drives, and the subtleties of emotion. While there are many that try to engage others in a healthy manner, there are far too many who accept the public judgement and try to conform to it; they, in turn, expect others to do the same.

When it comes right down to it, a relationship between people should be a matter personal and private choice, not some bizarre societal expectation. While it is good and healthy to share your feelings with others, it is not healthy to share them with Everyone, nor is it healthy to expect others to always share theirs, and it is NEVER healthy to force your emotions to fit some social definition of "normal'.

And that's the main problem with Valentine's Day: it celebrates an unrealistic expectation. As much as you and the author of that piece wishes to 'take it back", brushing off criticisms of the institution as it stands today as "poo-pooing" just makes things worse.

And, of course, none of this even touches that small minority who have never felt these sorts of deep connections for another person and are often belittled, shamed, and looked down upon for it. Any kind of public celebration of this kind actively excludes these people and drives a deeper wedge between them and the greater society.

As a side note, thank you for engaging me in this discussion. Most people would rather just call me a jerk and a loser for having the opinions that I do.

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It sounds like you're saying the answer to the problem of people needing to hide in closets is to build closets for all, to make closets the new normal. I'd rather tear the closets down and have loving consensual relationships be celebrated in all their forms - let same-sex couples get married in churches and community centers that welcome them with open arms, let the polyamorous be open with their love as we work out the legal conundrums of such extended relationships. We know that people who know LGBT folks become more accepting of LGBT lifestyles - people fear what they do not know. Extending the closets will only increase the fear, giving more power to the Jerry Falwells of the world.

So I can not condone the depublicization of intimate relationships. The opposite makes us more real to each other - not the saccharine tales of Hollywood but the real life ins and outs of trying to get along with our fellows, of loving and failing and trying again. It's only through seeing and knowing our mutual humanity that we can come to understand and truly love each other. That is the only way for the strange to truly be safe - by being seen as real human beings along with everyone else.

(I know there are some very foundational ideas and themes that we just plain do not agree on, and this is a subject I am very passionate about. So I am glad that you do see this as debate of ideas rather than discussion of personal qualities - I can see at least in part why you hold your views, even while I deeply disagree with them ;)

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